Episode Transcript
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Here we are.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Yes. Once again.
[00:00:21] Speaker C: Right back.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: Right back.
In. In nowhere.
But I am in the somewhere that we were when we.
Nowhere. In somewhere together.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: Yes. Last time our. Our listeners heard from us, we were somewhere. We were nowhere and somewhere. And that's where you are now?
[00:00:42] Speaker A: That's where I am now.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: But alas, I am not.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: But you are not. No. So we are. We are back to business as usual.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Yep. Oh, because. Because business as usual. I'm flying to New Orleans tomorrow and.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Of course you are.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Laughs it's been.
I mean, I think we're closing in on four weeks and it's seemed like a long time, so I'm. I'm headed back.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep.
Do they just, like, know you at the airport by now?
[00:01:16] Speaker B: So not so much the airport, but pretty much everywhere else.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Everywhere else.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: All the places I haunt, anyway.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. It's like when you call.
Call Uber, they're just like, oh, where she is.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: She's back. Okay.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: She's doing the thing and.
Okay. New Orleans. How long are you staying?
[00:01:38] Speaker B: It's just gonna be the weekend.
Although I will be traveling back on Monday, so I have all day Sunday there. I just have to get up on day and come home. Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Okay. Any. Any specific reason or. Just. No time to go. Just. Just.
[00:01:52] Speaker B: It's time to go. It's time. I mean, perfect. Refer back to. It's been, what, three, four weeks? It's time.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: It's time. Right, Duh. Yeah.
Silly question. Laura, anything else exciting that you're talking about or.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so basically it's about a year almost exactly. I think tomorrow will be the year anniversary of the wheels just falling off of my life. They just. There they all went.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Life as you knew it. Yeah.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And kind of commemorating that by finding a. A new place to call home.
Because I found that my house that I have lived in and loved for virtually my entire adult life is sort of haunted these days, and there's sort of a lot of ghosts and decided to set up a new abode.
[00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: So.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exciting.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: It is exciting. I'm very excited and it takes up a lot of my time, a lot of my head space. But yeah, that's. That's the. That's the headline. That's. That's my headline.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's. It's significant one. I mean, and there is so much about spaces that are tied to trauma and memories and yes. The way we hold those things in our bodies and sometimes the most gracious thing we can do to ourselves is. Is allow for that reset.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yep. And it took me a while to get there. I mean everyone says when something horrific happens, don't. Don't make any big decisions for a year.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And which I did.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: I honored that. And.
And now I'm seeing that there's so much truth in what you just said, that space is sacred and space holds energy and it holds memories and sometimes you just need to mix it up.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: So. Yeah.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's where I'm at.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Excellent. Well, I'm kind of doing the opposite.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I was going to say like, let's, let's hear your report.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
So it's been three years since I moved back to Indianapolis and everything in my psyche, my body is saying it's time to get ready to go.
Because that's the pattern. Two to three years is, is when we move on and I'm not planning on that.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: So it's like my New Orleans timer.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah. It's only. It's a, it's a three year thing.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: More extended. Yeah.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Life. Yeah.
[00:04:24] Speaker B: And the entire life. Right.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: The.
So yeah, it's. I've. I have been having to push through that and say no, I'm staying.
This is home.
These, these are my people, these are my places and I love them and I love here.
There's nothing about anything that's going on that is saying no, you gotta go, you gotta run.
It's just that it. It just feels inevitable.
You're.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: It's like a physiological.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: It really, really is. Yeah.
And call it trauma response, call it body memory, there's a lot of things that, that fit what's going on right now. But. But yeah. So it's just, it's a conscious decision to be here and present and forward thinking in, in this space and literally this, this space in this office. And so yeah, we were talking before we hit hit record that you. I pointed like.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Like we do this all the time. Like reference things, hold up books.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: We have video.
But you're just listening behind me are some blue curtains that I made yesterday and came in this morning and hung up.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: They're a vibrant teal. Like a very rich, gorgeous teal that.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Did we ever post that video of the space, by the way?
[00:05:54] Speaker A: I don't think we posted the video of the space. We posted a picture.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Sure is in it. But yeah, I have the video of the space and we have the video of flaming interview that we're Right.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: So if anybody's seen any of those aesthetics that blue is. It's spot on. It looks amazing. And I'm Just seeing it not even in real life, just on. On the screen here. But that's. That's what I'm seeing.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: And yeah, so part of, Part of those. Part of hanging the curtains is defining this space and just naming space for what it is. So. Yeah, I had not thought about that until now, but space right now is just very important in our lives.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. We're all about honoring space, creating space, cleaning space. It's all space related.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: It is. Yeah.
And.
And nowhere is a space for us.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: It is. It is.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: And it's become a very.
I'm just. Yeah. Sacred's a strong word. But it's. It is a good. It's been a good space for now. What is this? I think episode 10, somewhere in there I have to see.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: When I put the edit together. But yeah, that.
It's really becoming a. A staple and a. Something stable.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: It is becoming.
I think it's starting to become what we envisioned. And yeah, we are. We're making new, New changes all the time. Better ones. I think we're. We've. I think we've put our finger on one of the things that slows down our production.
And I think it is.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: That's what we're doing right now.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: Spoiler alert. It's this.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: We're going to keep doing this. We're just not going to be doing it at a separate time of our recordings.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Because we have to have like two sessions to put one podcast together and that's not mathing very well anymore. So.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: No, there was a vision and a purpose and a reason behind it.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: I don't remember what it was anymore.
[00:08:00] Speaker A: But we're going to fix was brilliant, I promise.
But it is no longer brilliant because things do that. You know, things used to be brilliant and now they're not.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: And they're so not anymore.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: And yeah. So a good, creative person is willing to flex and let.
Yeah. That be in the past. And so.
Yeah. But.
But since we are still here in this formerly brilliant way of doing work.
Yeah. We're introducing our friends.
Your friend.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
The Reverend Doctor.
Yes. The Reverend Doctor Marian Edmonds. Ellen, she is incredible. And my goodness, I have never known someone to put such a positive face on virtually everything. I mean, we are. I mean, let's be honest, we're not always. I mean, we're always witty, we're always funny, but we are not drama or trauma free here.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, no, no, no.
Yeah. And. And it's an authentic positive. It's not toxic positive.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Oh, no, not toxic. Positivity.
Which is incredible.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: It's not just a spin. It is just a genuine heart position that she brings to the table.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: It's incredible to me because most of the time when people show up too cheery to a not cheery circumstance, I find that very suspicious and suspect. But Marian has kind of flipped the switch on that, and we're going to get into that in this episode, and I think maybe by the end of it, people will be able to see a role model for positivity that is not toxic.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: That.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: And I think that that is a.
It is an ability to look exactly square on at what's happening, as awful as it could be, and say, you know what? There can still be good that can come of this.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I think right now is something we need to take deeply to heart.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: Very deeply.
So this is a perfect time to bring in our friend, the Reverend Dr. Marianne Edmonds Allen.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Hello, friends. Welcome to Nowhere. We're back in our favorite place. Nowhere. Or as I like to say, now here, now here, and now here. We're going to be very present.
And.
And this is a really special visit for me because I am bringing my friend Marian. Marian Edmonds Allen is the executive.
Let me see if I get your title correct. You're the executive director, is that correct?
[00:11:00] Speaker C: It's correct.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Of Parity nyc. And Parity is an organization that does a lot of work building bridges between LGBTQI plus people and their faith communities and their families.
And Marian and I have talked a few times concerning the fact that we don't exactly remember how we connected.
It was somewhere online probably three or four years ago, and I started.
I wrote a few pieces for this lovely journal or devotional project that Marian does several times a year around Lent and Pride month and Advent.
And it's just one of the many delightful things that Marian has going. So I very much wanted to introduce Marian to Laura Beth and to our whole community out there in nowhere.
And, Marian, welcome. Just welcome to Nowhere.
[00:12:12] Speaker C: Well, Cynthia, thank you. I am honored to be here. And, Laura Beth, it's wonderful to meet you. I admire you both so much, and I love your books, and so it's a thrill for me to be with you.
[00:12:24] Speaker A: That's great to have you. Thank you.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Well, we're all thrilled then. This is going to be a great episode.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: We couldn't ask for better energy. Yep. Great.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Yeah, we've got a lot of good energy and we've got pets.
I have a friend in the room, so, I mean, it's just tons.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: We have an Audience of good energy. Yeah. Recorded before a live studio audience.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Yes. I think that's the first time we.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Can say it is. It is. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Oh.
So, Marianne, before we hit record, we were talking a little bit about some of the things that we might hit on today. And I asked you just briefly how things have changed in. If things have changed in recent months. As we all are painfully aware, we've been experiencing a whole different political climate, far different than the one that you had worked in even six months ago. So I'm just wondering if you could share with us.
First of all, I will say that Marian's response was so Marian. Because Marian is the most optimistic person that I think I have ever interviewed.
The work that she does is so hard, but yet Marian is always optimistic and always upbeat.
And I had assumed that there would be some changes in the way that Marian's work is operating right now. And Marianne said, yeah, there's been some changes, but also opportunities. So this I really want to hear about what some of the changes are and the challenges, but also the opportunities. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
[00:14:10] Speaker C: Yes. Yes, Cynthia. Thank you. And I think my optimism is a blessing and also a challenge at the same time, because I always wake up in the morning ready to see what God has in store. In terms of challenges right now. I think we can all perhaps relate to the fact that things are different in the world. There's a lot more challenges, distress. I'm a pastor, and I pastor with LGBT folks, and so there's People are going through some difficult times in the United States, but also around the world. I do a lot of international work as well. So the distress level is high and the needs are high. So that's one challenge that I see. And, of course, all of the things that are happening in terms of legislation and.
And the different things that are very real additional challenges in addition to the distress that we see in terms of opportunities, though. So a big part of what I do in the world is I work with the most surprising people in order to benefit LGBT folks. So I work with very, very conserving folks who. It would surprise you if I said some of their names. And we work together often behind the scenes for civil rights for LGBT people.
And so what that means is I am often in places that are very conserving that are. That perhaps they don't know that I am LGBT if I'm wearing my clerical collar until I say, hey, I'm a queer pastor. I'm a woman married to a woman, and and you know that that frightens people.
But I try to make friends with them before I out myself in that way.
But what I'm. What I'm seeing in terms of it's.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: Hard to be offended once they already like you.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: That's it. That's it there strategy. They're like, oh, really?
Yeah. I'm seeing people coming to me and to others saying, how can I help?
So folks who before hadn't even thought about being an ally or hadn't even thought about, well, what's it like for LGBT people? It hasn't been part of their world. Now they're noticing, they're seeing what's happening, and they're wondering, can I be helpful? Is there something that I can do? So when I say opportunities, that's what I mean. There are more people coming, surprising people coming and saying, what can I do to be helpful?
[00:16:36] Speaker A: Are you finding that people who a year ago, six months ago, were sitting on the fence are not as likely to. They're realizing that the fence is becoming pencil thin?
[00:16:51] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I do a lot of work with parents. So say a child comes out, and these are religious parents. I've been seeing such a change in families where before there would be a real time of wrestling. And I'm not sure about my faith. And what does this mean? And it's a process.
What I'm seeing right away is fierce parents saying, I love my child, and they lead with that right away. And then, sure, they're still figuring out the faith stuff and what does that all mean? But they're leading with, I love my child and I want my child to be okay. So I'm seeing a lot of that right now, this kind of fierce energy. Not. Not on the sidelines anymore. But what can I do to be helpful?
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Can you give us some pointers? I know just this week I've had the opportunity to talk with a mother who I think that she is. She has just the best of intentions, and her child came out as queer non binary a couple years ago. And this mother is. Is so saddened about some of the changes in the relationship because this is a very conservative family.
And they're trying, but yet the efforts are not being seen by the child because the parents are conservative. And the way that the child is interpreting this is you belong to a group that is actively trying to harm me.
So what do you have in terms of pointers that someone that might be listening, that might know people like this, what could. What could they say to try to help?
[00:18:40] Speaker C: So the first thing I would say to the parent who has this loving heart and is trying to navigate it is to and has good intentions, is what I heard you say, Cynthia, is to lean into the good intentions part. Because part of the journey for folks is learning, learning the language, learning how to say things, learning that sometimes the things that we have said for a long time, we realize now can be hurtful, can be a pain point.
So there's a lot of learning going on.
And when someone has good intentions, that's fantastic because that's, it's hard to teach good intentions, but if someone comes with that, that's great. So I always affirm, I can tell that you love your child. This is wonderful. This is, I mean, you have everything you need, you love your child. And then I can watch a parent relax.
And then it's the kind of, the nuts and bolts of, okay, how do we navigate this now? And what I would say to parents who are part of a conserving faith community is find someone in your community who perhaps has a queer child or is known as an ally. Find a peer, because so I'm a queer person, so they'll listen to about so much me. But if it's a peer, if it's someone who belongs to their faith, belongs to their church, perhaps a child the same age as them, someone they respect already, then I would say, okay. And what I often try to do is to match people up if they're not sure if they know, but, but to look for those connections because that also helps to build community for folks who are not so alone. Sometimes parents can feel alone. They don't realize that, hey, lots of parents have queer kids and it's, and it's wonderful.
And also that they can learn the resources in their area because this parent is a little bit further along in the journey or a lot further, and they know, okay, here's where you can go to get healthcare. Here are the wonderful groups that, you know, your child might want to go here. So that's what those are the two things that I would say, lean into the love part and find community.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: There's, I think, just managing expectations is, you know, this, your, your identity with this child is well established.
And if you're not, first of all, if you're still in this group, if you're still practicing in these spaces, your identity isn't shifting.
And so there, there isn't going to be a perception of shifting identity.
And at some point, good intentions get met with new realities.
And I think as parents, we have to be Willing to engage those new realities with some open, honest reflection.
Yeah. So it's a journey for all of us.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: I'm laughing because the live studio audience has started to fire up.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: So.
Of the four legged variety or the. Yes, yes. Okay. All right. Yes, I.
They're fine.
So I.
Cynthia's question kind of brings to mind this image that I create with the work that I do.
I. I think of myself also as a bridge builder, but I describe the work as standing on a pillar in the middle of a raging river, building a bridge to both shores, neither of which are really sure they want a bridge.
[00:22:22] Speaker C: That is so true.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: And.
And I think that's, you know, this. This case with these. These young people and these parents, you know, we. That they don't. They don't want a bridge to our community until they start to see themselves and recognize that we are spiritual people and that having a faith community and having a place to grow spiritually is. Is important. It's part of who we are. It's part of how we stay healthy. So I guess the question is, why the bridge?
[00:22:59] Speaker C: Why the bridge?
[00:23:00] Speaker A: What's. Yeah. What's the value in what we do from your perspective?
[00:23:05] Speaker C: I. I think seeing the humanity in. In each other is such a gift to me personally, and the way I've seen people blossom over the years is such a gift to them and to their children and their communities. I have not yet met a parent who has said, I would like to learn to relate better to my queer child or something like that, who has not gone on that journey and come to this beautiful place where they say, I can't believe how wonderful my life is now. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
So for those folks to have a bridge to other people who are just starting on the journey, then there's just more love to share. And it's a beautiful world.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, more love to share. I think there's.
We're done. Thank you for joining us.
No, I mean, that's.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: That's a wrap.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Just.
That's good. Marianne, how long have you been doing this?
[00:24:18] Speaker C: I figured out that. Well, someone told me that I was LGBT at the age of 40.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Okay. So like three years. Is that.
[00:24:25] Speaker C: Oh, well.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:28] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: It's just a new thing.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: It's just.
[00:24:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
So I've been doing this type of bridge building work since 2011. So I started when I. I graduated from seminary, my second seminary, because my first conserving seminary was like, eek.
So then I went to another seminary and became a church planter. In Texas and then in Utah. And then that was when this bridge building work started, because I was doing a lot of work with LGBT young people experiencing homelessness.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: So 2011, just to put this in some context of timelines, this is this before marriage equality went through the Supreme Court. This is before many denominations that we now know to be open and affirming had made those. Has passed those resolutions and. And walked into that space. A very, very deep, different political and spiritual culture in our country.
Yeah, I just.
Walk us through a little bit of that timeline. Walk us through a little bit of that.
I, I, I like to use the phrase coming around instead of coming out. Walk.
Walk us through that. Coming. Coming around to this, this space that, that we're now in, where, I mean, we've kind of.
We thought we were. We thought the arc of justice had reached a peak and was moving forward, and now we're watching it slip back.
Yeah, yeah. And I'm realizing, too, that so many young queer people, you know, they came out after they came around to their identities, after ogre fell and after their churches were affirming. And so, yeah, there's just.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: See that crumble.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: A lot of hope being shattered in these spaces. So, yeah, I'm just curious. Walk us back to 2011 and building bridges because the waters were a lot more rough standing on that pillar.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: Yeah, they were. They absolutely were. When I moved to Utah, it was to start a UCC church in downtown Salt Lake that was LGBT affirming.
And what we started doing right away was I had learned about youth homelessness in Utah. So we rented a space where there was a commercial kitchen, and we would worship together on Sunday, and then we would cook, and the congregation would go out in teams to bring hot food and supplies to about 60 LGBT young people experiencing homelessness right around Salt Lake City. There was one young person that lived in a tree in Temple Square in Salt Lake City.
So that's what we were doing. And then I was invited to become the. The director of an LGBT youth center in Ogden. And I thought, well, I can pastor a church and run a youth center. That's no problem.
There were.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Why not do that all before breakfast? Right?
[00:27:50] Speaker C: For sure. So when I started there, there were 17 young people, and then quickly grew. And I think it was. It was the time of things were starting to shift then. So then it came. We had 300 young people a month who would come to our center. And what I noticed was that a third of those young people were experiencing homelessness.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: And so let's Just put a number to that.300amonth, is that what you said?
[00:28:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: So a hundred.
100 experiencing homelessness.
[00:28:23] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: For context, again, the average size church in America right now is 30. 30 people.
So three times the size of the average congregation in America. Just in that context, experiencing homelessness. Okay. All right. Yeah.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: You're just coming in hot with the statistics today.
What's going on?
[00:28:46] Speaker A: I. I'm. Yeah, I've been doing homework, so. Yeah.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Yeah, you're showing off.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: No, it's just. I mean, it is. We. We throw these. These numbers and these timelines and everything around, and it's. I think it's just. It's important to stop and put them in context and say, yeah, 300 kids are coming. Wow, that's great. And 100 of them are. Are unhoused and homeless.
Well, 99, because 1 has a tree, but I mean. Yeah. What.
[00:29:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: What do you do with that? Okay. Sorry. Yeah. What do you do with that?
[00:29:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I got mad, and the. The very first time a newly unhoused young person came to the door, I thought, oh, my goodness. It was a young person who had traveled three hours, hitchhiked to get there, had. Was dragging us a suitcase, a transgender young person.
And they said to me, my.
My father, it was a religious leader in the. In the Latter Day Saint church, kicked me out. And I had heard about the center, and I made it here. Can you help me? And it was an hour before our center was due to close, and it was. Our center was in the basement of a Unitarian church, because you always do youth programs in the basement, apparently, is what we do.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: It's a given.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: It already smells, so that's fine.
[00:30:13] Speaker C: Exactly.
So I said to this young person, and I was still fairly new to Utah, fairly new to what resources were out there. But I knew that I had seen shelters for folks experiencing homelessness. So I welcomed the young person in. Found food and all the good things. And I said, okay, I'm going to make some phone calls, and we're going to find you a spot for tonight, and then tomorrow, let's, you know, let's get to work and let's figure out things. So I started calling the different homeless shelters, and each one that I called, when I said, do you have space for a 15 year old? They would say, no. And that was so. So I kept calling, kept calling. I got to the last one. There were. There were four on my list that I could find. And then they're like, no.
And I was like, why? This is a 15 year old that needs a place to sleep tonight and you're telling me you don't have any space, why?
And what they said to me was, well, in Utah it is against the law to house to shelter an unaccompanied youth.
So it's against the law to provide shelter to a person who was alone.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: And that's why all the no was coming.
[00:31:27] Speaker C: That's why. I mean, you think someone could have told you that, but no one was right.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: How does that compare? This, all of what you've, you've told us of where, where things were politically and numbers wise when you began, how does it compare to where we are now?
[00:31:48] Speaker C: It's very different.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Time out, what happened?
It's like, don't leave me in 2011. Cynthia.
[00:31:57] Speaker C: Okay, all right.
And it is a story story. So I said to the young person, okay, we are going to figure this out tomorrow. I couldn't find a place for you tonight. Do you maybe have a friend nearby that you could just stay with overnight? And then we're going to figure this out.
So the young person said, well, yeah, I do. So it's like, okay, good, let's do that. I'll talk to you tomorrow.
Well, in the morning I had a phone call. The young person was in the hospital because they had been assaulted in the night.
So that was when I just broke because I was so enraged that what is happening in this world that a 15 year old child can't be sheltered and then ends up in the hospital.
So then I just went on this rampage of trying to raise awareness to get people to care. I figured if enough people knew about youth homelessness in the state of Utah and what was happening, that things would change, that people would stop kicking their child out, that conditions in the state would change. So that's what I did. It was for me, starting in 2011, I was a very angry, angry person.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: Did you divide the hospital bill into quarters and send it to each one of those shelters?
That's, I mean, that's just, I am sorry.
[00:33:22] Speaker C: Maddening.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: Yes, yes, absolutely.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: What ended up happening with her? Was she okay? Did you, were you able to follow her story?
[00:33:32] Speaker C: Yeah. And she wanted to be reunited with her parents is what she wanted.
And her parents did not want to be reunited with her. It was just, just difficult for, for years, you know, just such a difficult story. And a child with a loving heart. And I saw this over and over again with the.
But none of them blamed their parents. Even when their parents kicked them out, none of them blamed their Parents, they just wanted to be reconciled with their parents.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: So I guess now I will ask, how does, how does the environment today compare to where you started? So you were. Things were not stacked up for the success of any of these, these young people?
[00:34:23] Speaker C: Not at all.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: And you were angry, and rightfully so.
Where are we today in terms of numbers, in terms of policies, in terms of, are things getting better? About the same. Are they worse?
[00:34:40] Speaker C: So what happened was I did my, my spree with media and I started. This was before all the things that we see all the time now where people just call others out by name. I was doing that in 2011, so I started doing that. And then I called out a legislator for an anti bullying bill that I knew was going to be bad for LGBT young people.
And through that I met a legislator who didn't realize there were homeless youth who argued with me about youth experiencing homelessness.
And finally I said, well, if you don't believe me, come to my center then and meet some.
Yeah, but I didn't say that with love in my heart. Remember how angry I was?
And this was making national, international news. This, this Utah youth homelessness stuff. I mean, it was, it was, it was gaining momentum. And even so, the people on the ground in Utah didn't believe it.
So he sent his aide. And I had met her that day, that day in his office. He called me into his office and she showed up at the center the next week. And I was like, not happy to see her and so surprised to see her.
And she came in and we started arguing. And while we were arguing, we were going down the stairs into the basement, remember? And we got halfway and we're standing there arguing. And this young child came in the door and went past us down the stairs to get to the shelving at the bottom of the stairs and had a giant empty backpack and started filling it up with food.
And Laura, the aide, started noticing the child and said, why do you need all that food? And so Laura kept asking questions and said, well, you aren't homeless. And the kid didn't say anything. And then Laura said, well, how old are you anyway? And this small, thin child pulled himself up and said, well, I'm 18, which we knew wasn't true, and then ran past us up the stairs and out the door and said, I'm 12.
This was November now in Utah. It's already cold, already snow in the ground. And this child had jeans and a T shirt on. And Laura watched the child go and said, where is your coat?
So that was the Mo. That was my Damascus Road moment, where my heart changed because I saw Laura's heart change. Laura was a Latter Day Saint, Conservative. Everything I hated, I hated her. I didn't know her, and I hated her, but I saw her heart melt, and my heart melted. And the next week, a flatbed truck came to the center, and it was piled high with hundreds of coats. Because Laura went home and called all her church friends and said, did you know there are 5,000 young people? By then, we had done the numbers. 5,000 young people in Utah were experiencing homelessness at that time. And she said, they need coats.
So that was the start of my new life and this partnership with people who have access to different things. Laura said, marion, what are you doing? Let's change the laws.
So, because of Laura, and I'm getting to the answer to your question, Cynthia, things changed because of people like Laura who didn't really. They didn't realize. They didn't know. They hadn't met an LGBT person like me who could tell stories.
They hadn't been to a center, and they were aghast that there were homeless young people sleeping in trees in Temple Square and in squats and in terrible conditions. The suicide rate. I mean, everything was awful for young people in Utah. And then there were all these new people. I wouldn't call them allies yet, because their theology didn't change. It wasn't like all of a sudden, they had rainbow stickers everywhere. It wasn't like that. But they had a heart, just like I had a heart and cared for young people. They did, too. And then that was when things started to change in Utah, and it's a very different place. Yes, there's current challenges, and it's very different, because the base of the folks there, they have this. This love now for people who. Who they didn't realize they would love.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: And I think one thing I love about that story is it. It goes back to your answer to the question about why we need bridges, because there'll be more love. The. The love had to go flow both ways on that bridge between you and Laura.
Yeah. It wasn't gonna. There wasn't gonna be impacting change until you both started addressing each other as humans worthy of love. And that's hard. That is hard right now for us as a community.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: It is hard. It is hard. And I think it also echoes and calls back the.
The strategy that you were using, Marian, where you make friends before you kind of introduce the. The more choppy waters of, you know, who you are and what you're about.
And all of this sounds delightful and it sounds like it's possible to really make change by getting to people's hearts. But have you ever experienced a time when there was just callousness and that and you couldn't, you couldn't break through with love?
[00:40:11] Speaker C: No.
And, and the reason is I see it as a journey.
And I also know that people can be really performative and very different if they're in public, if other people are around, and if someone is callous, that says to me, they have energy, they have pain around this, and so they're hurting and there's something there to work with.
If someone is indifferent, then there's nothing to work with.
But if there is some type of energy, then I know, okay, I have something to work with. And now it's a matter of listening. It's a matter of being friendly and inviting them to share their story.
And it always works. I mean, I should be able to say, yeah, there was this time, but actually people come around.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And if they. If what I hear you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is that you can't say yes to that because it's not done.
There's still, they're still on that arc. There's still somewhere on that journey. And it is, it's a step of faith.
And I, I define faith as moving toward love that we've yet to experience.
It's a step of faith that says there's still love to be found in these people, in these relationships, in these places. And. Yeah.
So, Cynthia, did you. Were you headed somewhere?
[00:41:55] Speaker B: No, I just think of how powerful it is. And I'm also thinking about how everything that you've shared, Marian, just funnels into what we've been talking about on our podcast Season about peace being the path to resistance.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Like, that's exactly where I was about to head.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: We don't have to ask you the question because everything you have said has illustrated that, that, that we get more done through a peaceful path than perhaps.
I mean, it's, it's a theory that you've tested multiple times and you're here to tell us.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: So. And I, I'd like to frame the question because I know you, you've done some work around spiritual trauma and in engaging that space. And so we don't walk into this bridge building world as much as we are optimists about. Not, not just optimists, but, you know, pragmatists. And we believe that love can be found in these places. And the ark is moving. That way there is a lot of genuine hurt, a lot of genuine damage that has, has been done.
And back to Cynthia's question about, you know, the, the child not trusting the change in the parents, not trusting the intentions of the parents because of where they've seen. That's, that is a trauma response that we see over and over and over and over again in our churches, so. Or in our, in the, in the queer community.
So where does, where does this concept of peace that we've been talking about, this concept of, of expecting love, of bringing love to the table, of those mutual bridges, where do, where do we make room for the pain and the hurt in that as we pursue peace as a path to resistance?
[00:43:59] Speaker C: That's such an important point to make because peace building is, it's hard work and it's not necessarily for everyone yet. I mean, it's, it's a journey for all of us.
And I think for me back at the beginning, I could, there was no way I could do any type of peace building because I was so angry and I was so hurt and I was processing my own trauma and all of that.
And I finally got to a point that I was able to do that. But for, for all of us, I think being aware of what is difficult, what is hard, and to be really gentle with ourselves, to give ourselves grace and not push ourselves into us, into a space, into an interaction, into a conversation that may be hurtful beyond what we are prepared to do. So in other words, for myself, I will go into an interaction knowing that they may say something hurtful to me, but I, I am prepared for that. I've been doing this long enough and I've done the interior work and still I have my own decision tree when if someone says something, I'm like, if I have two trans kids, and then if they ever go there, I'm out, you know, so knowing my own boundaries. So I think for all of us, being aware, what are the spaces that we are comfortable going into and what are the spaces that aren't comfortable? And knowing when it's time to say, oh, I remember a phone call I need to make, I'll see you later, and be out. And to not put ourselves into a position where we be. Where we may be harmed further.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And to then create a sense of awareness on behalf of others who might not have that voice or might not have that sense of self awareness to advocate for themselves.
Yeah. In those moments.
Oh, deep breath.
[00:46:10] Speaker C: It's heavy. It's heavy.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: It is heavy.
It's heavy. But so beautiful and just so much.
Just so much that the church faith communities has to learn from. It could be learning from the queer community and from the journey that we've all been on.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: I know. One time. Oh, I'm sorry, were you mid thought?
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Yeah, but I can put a pin in it.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: One time I did talk with you, Marian, about the state of church right now, and you were telling me that there were good things that were happening because, yes, I could look at church very critically, and I say, there's so much more work to be done. There's so much more work to be done. But you always seem to come back and say, bill, there's changes all the time and things are so much better. And I think we need to hear. I mean, I know I need to hear more about that.
[00:47:12] Speaker C: Well, it's not everywhere, and sometimes you need to look closely, but change is happening. I mean, it truly is. And often it's in places that we don't necessarily notice it because in our current climate, if someone broadcasts, hey, our church is doing this great thing to welcome LGBT people, then you know, it's not going to go well for them. So people are being more careful about how they, how they broadcast that into the world.
But it's happening at every level, in small places. I send out glitter blessings and glitter ashes every year, and the places I send them out most often are the rural communities where people are like, okay, our 30 people in our church, we don't have an LGBT person that we know of, and yet we love LGBT people, and we are going to have glitter in our ashes for Ash Wednesday that, you know, isn't appropriate for all churches. But for some churches, it's a way that they show solidarity. So it's happening in rural area areas everywhere, and it's also happening in the large conserving denominations quietly and behind the scenes. There's so much work going on and there's so many big name evangelical pastors that I talk to behind the scenes who have a loving heart and are trying to figure out how to navigate it in a way that doesn't destroy their church, because people's feelings are high on, on both sides of it, but the loving hearts are there and change is happening.
[00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And I, you know, we have a church here in Indianapolis has been making headlines because the pastor called on the government to execute LGBTQ people and from the pulpit, you know, so we. That, that is still a reality.
And, and also, like we said earlier, people aren't sitting on the fence nearly as, as deeply as, as they had been. I now have two pins here.
The.
The. You. You keep.
We have a saying in our house. We are very pro semantic.
[00:49:39] Speaker C: The.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: You keep using the word conserving in a space that many of us are going to be used to, hearing the word conservative.
I wondered if you'd just address that because I like it.
[00:49:56] Speaker C: Well, the reason I use that word was one day I was in a meeting with some conserving faith leaders and I was using the word conservative until one of them blew up at me and said, that is so hurtful when you call us that.
And I said, oh my goodness. I, I'm sorry, I had no idea. And from that time on, and this is a person that after he blew up at me, we became dear friends.
And so from since then, I don't say conservative.
[00:50:34] Speaker B: Did he say why it was offensive? This is, I've never really heard that before.
[00:50:39] Speaker C: He, you know, he didn't unpack it. He, he just said, this is. It's highly offensive to me to be called that. He felt like he was being called a name.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Well, and so I think the reason I, I like the shift is because it does go from a, a name, a moniker, a label to an action.
This is the verb that is, describes what they are doing as practitioners of faith, as active actors in this church and faith world. They are conserving, they are holding back, they are sticking with something that has always been or is comfortable in their minds and in their space for whatever reason. And we can say that somewhat without judgment.
You know, if they're conserving that, we're letting it go.
We're. We're not holding on to that. We are not going to conserve that. We're going to progress into something else. We are going to evolve or grow or whatever. And so, I mean, it's, yeah, it's. It. I like verbs that tell us how are. We are relating to people. So thank you for that. I think that's.
[00:52:09] Speaker B: Thanks for the question. Like, that was a great question.
[00:52:16] Speaker C: Thank you. I mean, truly, that's such a way to put it. I hadn't thought about it that way.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: And I just want to pause because I'd love it when the journalist in the room tells me that I ask good questions.
I will put some ice on the shoulder that I just hurt patting myself on the back.
The.
My other pin, the other pin that I had had sitting here.
I'm going to ask you a question that I get asked a lot.
So I, you know, grew up evangelical and conservative conservative who was also conserving.
No, I was conservative and also conserving and came out late in life and stepped away from my career in the church and in ministry and all those dreams of that, but then came back to it. And the question I get asked a lot is, why did you stay?
Why did you stay in the church? Why did you stay in that. That place? As you. As I became more aware of myself, as I came around to understanding myself as a trans, intersex, lesbian, human, why stay in this institution?
Why stay in this space?
So I'm curious why, as you came around to understanding your sexuality and where that was in the world, whatever that journey looked like for you, why stay in this space?
[00:54:00] Speaker C: Because that was me.
So Until I was 40, I was evangelical, and LGBT was not at all part of my world, except when I heard it from the pulpit and not good terms. Right. And so I was much more part of the problem than part of the solution.
And God was gracious. God was gracious with me.
And I do not want to get in the way of God's grace with someone else. And if I can be part of helping, then I want to be part of helping. I feel like it's. It's God's call on my life. So that's how I answer it. But, Laura Beth, I'm so curious how you answered that question.
[00:54:39] Speaker A: I am similar.
It's. It is.
It. This is a language I know.
This is a gift that God has given me since my youth, since my childhood.
And it is an opportunity that I am uniquely qualified for to speak from this body in this location, to places that others might not have academic or experience to have access to. And so it's a privilege.
Yeah. Yeah. It's an honor. And I think, you know, I don't think everyone from the margins needs to be called on to defend or, you know, bring accounts and explain ourselves, explain our community to those who are not in the margins. And also I believe those of us who are gifted to do so have a responsibility.
[00:55:37] Speaker B: And what I love about both of you is that you're not judgmental about people who didn't stay. And for.
I think for me, right now, I would put myself the category of I didn't stay.
Do I not believe in God? Do I not have a spiritual side of me? That's a completely different topic.
That's a completely different topic. But I chose not to stay in the institution we call church. But yet, when I'm in a space like this with. With you specifically, Marian and Laura Beth, and with others like you who did Stay or are curious. I feel that's church. I feel that, you know, if we're going to go completely biblical here, wherever two or three are gathered, you know, I'm there in the midst. So for me, this kind of conversation where we can affirm each other and we can share ideas and share thoughts and talk about how to love people better, that's become church for me, and I don't know that's where I'm at now. Will I be there in five years? I don't know. But I do love that you are. You are both so open and just say, yeah, we chose to stay, but if you didn't, you're still.
You're still cool. You're still. All right.
[00:57:07] Speaker A: Hey. Hey. Some. Some of my closest friends are agnostic. I don't know what you're talking about.
Is there is. Do you remember a moment? And I am looking at the timer here and aware that, yeah, we can't keep talking. Well, we could keep talking for a very long time, and we'll. We'll have to do it again because there's so much. So much.
Was there a moment when you went.
You. You took that shift and it was like you. There was the message that you heard about LGBTQ people and consequently about yourself from the pulpit, and this is. That was representing God and the scripture and interpretation. Was there a. A moment when you said. Or was this a journey or a time when. When you had that shift that said God's okay with me.
When.
When you and God got on the same page, so to speak? I mean, not. We're not on the same page. I. We're. That. I take that. Yeah.
I'm not as doing a good job of asking the question.
[00:58:15] Speaker C: I know what you. I know.
[00:58:16] Speaker A: I'm not looking at Cynthia. Okay. All right.
I just. I'm gonna have to unpat my back.
The.
[00:58:26] Speaker C: I know exactly what you mean, Laura Beth.
[00:58:28] Speaker A: And there wasn't.
[00:58:29] Speaker C: And here's my moment. I do remember it.
[00:58:32] Speaker A: Great.
[00:58:32] Speaker C: So after the. My seminary experience, when I figured out I was lgbt, at the very end of that journey, I was about to graduate and be ordained into the denomination.
And then I. That summer at cpe, I.
Someone told me I was LGBT and realized it was true. Then I.
[00:58:50] Speaker A: And they. Great when somebody else has to tell us. Yeah.
[00:58:54] Speaker C: Right.
[00:58:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:58:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
So I. I was the.
A single parent of four small children and just struggling to keep it all together. And when I realized I wasn't going to have a job and all these things, I gave my kids back to their dad. And I ended up living in my car.
And I thought that my journey to ministry was over, that my relationship with God was over. That was it for me.
And then someone reached out and said, marion, did you know there are seminaries that want LGBT people? And I said, that's a cruel joke.
[00:59:36] Speaker A: Wait, you mean real ones?
[00:59:37] Speaker B: Crazy talk.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: Well, sure. Fake seminaries, yeah.
[00:59:43] Speaker C: That was the, that was the moment, Laura Beth, when I was like, oh, I guess God's not done with me yet. And I have had this sense that God hasn't let go of me and God isn't going to let go of me.
[00:59:57] Speaker A: Yeah, well, thank God for that, friend.
[01:00:02] Speaker C: Yeah. How about you? Did you have a moment?
[01:00:06] Speaker A: I think there were, there were. It was a series of moments.
I was in an intensive outpatient therapy program after a suicide attempt and on the verge of divorce and coming to terms with my identity with some medical diagnosis. And I told my therapist that my faith wasn't big enough to handle all this.
And her response was, I don't think it's your faith that's not big enough. It's your idea of God that's too small.
And I, the way I describe that now we talk in evangelical world about that God shaped hole in our heart that only Jesus can fill. And I think there's some beautiful imagery to be held onto in that. But the challenge comes when we have built a God shaped box in our head and just to make that work. And so I started taking the box apart and I let God be God.
And it got messy and it's still messy and it's getting messier, but it's, but it's a beautiful messy. And I, I let go. There was a moment when I confessed I was in a church. My first faith home after coming out was in a recovery community in North Texas.
And I wasn't sure why I was there, except it was someplace that would have me and sitting in a circle with people struggling with all sorts of addictions and challenges. And I, I stopped and thought, you know what? I have an addiction to answers.
I have an addiction to certainty.
And what if I let go of that?
What if I let go of that? And so that became a moment where God was able to get bigger. The idea of my gender being as complicated as it was was no longer a problem to me. I didn't have to fix it. I didn't have to explain, could be a mystery and be good and.
Yeah, and then I had that moment when that friend called me and I was trying desperately to find Places for trans Christian people and was finding no resources and no places. And she said, well, have you looked at gay Christian resources?
I said, why would I do that? And she's like, well, you're gay.
I did the math. Oh, yeah. I'm a woman who likes women. That's. Yeah, that's. The maths work on that. And so, yeah, so the same thing. There are churches, there are resources, and there are places. And I connected with, you know, people who are already doing the work, organizations that were doing the work, and I didn't find a few. I found thousands who are in that space. And so, yeah.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: And what's hilarious to me. Listen to you both, is that it was the issue with LGBTQI plus that was, like, what sent me finally running toward the door of the church. I'm just, like, indignant. Like, my friends aren't welcome here. Well, I'm not going to be here. And here you guys are staying, and.
[01:03:34] Speaker A: Then we're not staying there. And I think that's the be. I mean, we. We're not staying in those churches. Um, I'll go visit those churches because it's fun.
[01:03:44] Speaker C: There are. There are folks, though, I've learned over the years, who feel comfortable in those churches. And what I tell folks who say, well, we don't have those people here. I say, in every single church, there is someone who's lgbt, whether they're out or not.
[01:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:04:00] Speaker C: There's someone in your pews.
[01:04:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Or statistically, their grandchild is. Or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If we expand that to children, neighbor.
We touch every church everywhere. Yeah. Yep. So great. Can I ask the question?
[01:04:21] Speaker B: Go for it.
[01:04:22] Speaker A: All right, all right.
Get back on the top.
[01:04:29] Speaker C: I'm prepared for this.
[01:04:30] Speaker A: Okay, great. So, yeah. So is there anything that, in the course of our conversation that you had hoped we'd asked that you would want us to ask that you don't get asked enough, that you would just be dying to have an answer for?
[01:04:50] Speaker C: Yes. Okay, so you didn't ask me, Marion, what are you doing that's new that you're excited about?
[01:04:57] Speaker A: You know, we did not. Yeah.
[01:05:00] Speaker B: No. Marion, what are you doing?
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Let's. What's new? What's happening?
[01:05:07] Speaker C: Learn to play the drums. And I am over the moon because I am just like, you know, I crank up the tunes in the car, and I'm like. I listen to the drums, and I'm like, I can. I want to learn to do that. So I am starting this journey. It's going to be my birthday present to myself to start this journey. So I'm so excited.
[01:05:25] Speaker A: Okay, so are we starting with, like, a drum kit? We're starting with hand drums. Are we starting with What's. What's the path here?
[01:05:33] Speaker C: I've got. I've got drum pads to start.
[01:05:35] Speaker A: Okay. All right, so starting with. With sticks or with your hands or with.
[01:05:39] Speaker C: With sticks. With sticks.
[01:05:40] Speaker A: Okay. Good for you. Yeah. Yep.
[01:05:43] Speaker C: Do you play? So you. You sound as though you. You know the lingo.
[01:05:46] Speaker A: Well, so I. As a studio musician, I've learned to love drummers.
You know, they.
They're a blessing to us.
I'm a guitarist and.
[01:05:58] Speaker C: Wow. I didn't know this about you.
[01:06:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:06:01] Speaker C: Cooler than I realized.
[01:06:04] Speaker B: Did our intro and outro music.
[01:06:07] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's my guitar, my album. Talk about that album off Spotify. But, yeah, I recorded a pandemic album, and I spent seven years in the Christian music business, and.
[01:06:21] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.
[01:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that was part of my evangelical Christian life, was in that. That worship space, which.
It's a whole other.
Other conversation to blend the evangelicalism with the emotions of evangelical worship.
And, yeah, that takes. That's a whole nother deep dive. But so drums. I. I love that.
[01:06:48] Speaker B: Didn't see that coming. But.
[01:06:49] Speaker A: No, that was. That was a fun answer to that. That question.
[01:06:54] Speaker C: Yay. I'm glad it was a fun answer. And I need to listen to your album. I'm really excited.
[01:06:59] Speaker A: The.
Yeah, like I say, I. It's. I've pulled it. I can get. I can point you to where it is. It's not on Spotify anymore, but the. But we are starting to look at doing some more recording and stuff. Good. So.
[01:07:13] Speaker C: Yeah, excellent.
[01:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll call you in a rod.
[01:07:15] Speaker B: Having a drum circle.
[01:07:17] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I love a drum circle. I absolutely love a drum circle.
[01:07:22] Speaker B: I have been drum circle curious for a long time, and I've just been, like, really wanting. Drum circle.
[01:07:30] Speaker A: You've never done a drum circle.
[01:07:32] Speaker B: The closest I've come to a drum circle is. Is what we talked about in another episode that probably hasn't been released yet, but in Asheville, they have community.
[01:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:07:43] Speaker B: Circle. And I was just, like, on the periphery, listening and watching and, you know, I didn't have a drum, so.
[01:07:52] Speaker A: No.
[01:07:52] Speaker B: No, I've not had a proper drum circle.
[01:07:54] Speaker A: No. Okay, well, you're gonna be in Indianapolis soon, and we will. We will find ourselves a drum circle or make ourselves a drum circle, so.
[01:08:04] Speaker B: And, Marianne, we'll get you there somehow.
[01:08:08] Speaker A: No, we need to get to Utah to have a drum circle with Marian. That's traveling. Drum circle.
[01:08:14] Speaker C: They do it in the park every weekend in Salt Lake, so. Yeah, let's do it.
[01:08:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Good.
Marianne, this has been so much fun.
And I use that word a little loosely because some of this was.
Yeah. Heavy. And sometimes heavy is fun.
The world of what we do. So, so much more to talk about. So we will absolutely be having you back next season, and whatever season looks like, we're gonna figure that. That out.
[01:08:48] Speaker B: You're a friend of the pod now.
[01:08:49] Speaker C: So I'm a huge fan, and so I'm. I'm just. I'm delighted. It's been an honor to be here, and I'm grateful.
[01:08:58] Speaker B: Well, I'm a fan of you, so, I mean, it's just. It's. It's just. It's love all around.
[01:09:03] Speaker C: Love all around.
[01:09:05] Speaker A: Therehere we go.
Sa.
